Shelby Nolan (00:00)

so many folks, myself included, experience those those blocks and those barriers where you're telling yourself, like, all right, let's get up and go wash the dishes and then just

nothing happens. Then it's like, Okay, let's go wash the dishes and then nothing happens.

Sheela (00:14)

Welcome to Not on the List, where we have conversations with professionals about executive function, support, and the things we don't talk about. For those of us with never-ending lists, I'm Sheela Ivlev. We're in conversation today with Shelby Nolan LPC, a queer and neurodivergent therapist living in Colorado and owner of a divergent lens counseling, where she specializes in working with complex trauma and queer and neurodivergent folks.

This conversation is for education and not medical advice. Shelby, welcome.

Shelby Nolan (00:47)

Hi, thanks for having me.

Sheela (00:48)

So I wanna just start by asking about what an LPC is. It's a licensed professional counselor. So can you tell us more about what you do in practice?

Shelby Nolan (01:00)

Sure. an LPC or a licensed professional counselor in the state of Colorado is someone who has a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling or something kind of in that vein. and then you have to go through all the extra hours outside of grad school. And then now I am a private practice therapist, so I

work with mostly individuals, mostly adults,

Sheela (01:26)

I'd love to learn more about your practice and your niche and what brought you to it.

Shelby Nolan (01:32)

when I was in my internship, was around the time I was developing a special interest in neurodivergence and ended up being the person

despite being still in school, who knew the most about neurodivergence 'cause I was I was deep diving on the regular. so the niche kind of accidentally fell into my lap since I knew the most I would be given those clients who were seeking care. and also just kind of finding it along the way.

with adults and wondering like, Hey, have you talked to someone about ADHD or have you ever thought about autism or other kind of things like that?

So it mostly fell into my lap and then after I was hired at my internship site after graduate school. So internship and working there, I was about a year and a half, and then I wanted a little bit more autonomy over how I practiced. So I set up my own practice, A Divergent Lens Counseling.

The name was really important to me because it spoke both to working with neurodivergent people, with the word divergent in it, and also about my neurodivergence, because it's a divergent lens. It's my framework of how I am going to see and do everything because that's who I am as a person. and it kind of speaks to this divergence from the norm, quote unquote, because I I also work with queer folks, disabled, chronically ill, other people who are.

not the quote unquote typical cis white middle class American.

Sheela (02:54)

My understanding is that neurodivergence isn't a diagnosis It's not a clinical term. I think of neurodivergence kind of simplified people that have learning, thinking, processing differences depending on where you look, there are different diagnoses that fall in there. some like bipolar anxiety sometimes are included, sometimes they're not.

I'd say maybe in your practice or just how you think of it, how would you describe neurodivergence?

Shelby Nolan (03:22)

Very simply I tell people it literally like in a really

fundamental level just means brain different. those who might have brains who are different, as you were saying, they might process or utilize information or react to stimuli differently than the quote unquote typical brain. It might be that people are born with a brain that uses information processes differently, like autism or ADHD. It could be that it is developed over time or after

an event like PTSD or complex PTSD or even Alzheimer's. There's a bunch of diagnoses that fall under this umbrella, like dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalcula all the I call them the DYS cousins. borderline personality disorder, which is a complex trauma diagnosis, bipolar disorder, synesthesia. There's all kinds of things, some of which are diagnoses and some of which

Might not be. It's not really a thing that's talked about very much, asexuality is a way that the brain is functioning, and by functioning I mean like a literal definition of like going through functions. it's a different way, that is different than what people perceive as the norm. It's just a difference in the brain and how one experiences the world.

Sheela (04:31)

In practice and in your own life, how have you seen neurodiversity connected to executive function? I can say for myself, I'm late diagnosed, ADHD, but something that I learned very early on, and I didn't even realize I was doing it was there were just certain things that I didn't like to do as a child, or would tell people that I was allergic or kind of find my own excuses.

to avoid things that were dysregulating, overstimulating, or just simply exhausting for me. And that's my experience. I'm curious, what you've seen in practice or just in your own life, that connection to executive function and neurodiversity.

Shelby Nolan (05:10)

yeah, so many folks, myself included, experience those those blocks and those barriers where you're telling yourself, like, all right, let's get up and go wash the dishes and then just nothing happens. Then it's like, Okay, let's go wash the dishes and then nothing happens. I have worked with folks and maybe they present with patterns that might be more in line with ADHD or autism or depression or trauma.

it shows up in for so many people in so many ways would say probably more connected to neurodivergence than neurotypicalness. I'm not sure if that's a noun. but that also might be my bias of my folks that I work with and myself I don't work with many folks who wouldn't consider themselves neurodivergent.

Sheela (05:49)

in the last episode we talked about how you don't have to have a diagnosis to have executive functioning difficulties or clinically executive dysfunction. but at least in my own experience, in my practice, I work with primarily neurodivergent adults, that

difficulty or that executive dysfunction seems to surface a lot more commonly or sooner for neurodivergent folks, I'd say. For my neurotypical friends, it's when they haven't slept or if they're hungover. I'm like that's what I experience every day.

Shelby Nolan (06:19)

Yes.

Yes. I I know I stole this from someone on the internet, but I wish I knew who to give them credit, but they kinda described it as like the pee metaphor that so many of these things, especially around neurodivergence and people like exploring self diagnosis or so many of the things that you're looking at or on the carousel post on Instagram and things like that are human behaviors. But

There's a difference in the intensity, the frequency, the duration of these behaviors. And so this person with the pee metaphor was like, Yeah, pretty much everyone pees, right? There's a difference between like, I don't know, some ten, twelve times a day and some like sixty plus times a day. You are living a very different life, but there's still the same human behavior underneath it. Same with executive dysfunction, like almost everyone's gonna experience that sometimes, right? Like 'cause they're tired or had a hard day or just kind of depleted, hungover, whatever. Folks who are

neurodivergent or especially specific kind of diagnoses and experiences under that umbrella are experiencing executive dysfunction so much more often, so frequently, so intensely that it's impacting their life more than just a blip here or there.

Sheela (07:21)

Thank you. I've never heard that metaphor.

Shelby Nolan (07:23)

Yeah.

Sheela (07:23)

That's a really interesting way to put it and like pretty easy for people to understand. you shared some really interesting intersections in your practice. and so would love to hear about your experience working with neurodivergent folks, queer folks, non-monogamous folks, disabled folks, and Medicaid clients, there's all kind of

levels of social, class, disability, access, identity, all mixed in. So would love to hear more about what you've seen. And I know that has also formed your practice as well.

Shelby Nolan (07:53)

Yeah.

Yeah, there's so much intersection there. I started working primarily with Medicaid clients in my internship and that has kind of continued to be something I have prioritized and feels really important to me. and that just lines up with with folks who might struggle with so much of our life in the United States is built around work.

and executive dysfunction, chronic pain or illness, social differences and difficulties, sensory differences and difficulties can all lead to difficulties at work and and not necessarily for lack of trying or not necessarily for lack of skill or competence. it's generally a lack of accommodation and a lack of understanding or awareness.

around neurodivergence and how to be more accepting.

Sheela (08:41)

there's a lot more awareness building, which I think is absolutely amazing. but a lot of it is really focused on ADHD and autism and productivity. At least that's what's on my feed. and so I'm curious to hear from you, who else belongs, who's being left out, and other things that might be missed.

Shelby Nolan (09:03)

Yeah. so many folks are being kind of left out, especially in the neurodivergence space where a lot of people are talking about ADHD and autism, which is fantastic. That's great. And that is not necessarily the entirety of what neurodivergence is encapsulating. there's a lot of of layers here. Like we have like Alzheimer's within that, there's of course accommodation, and then there's of course like ageism that can show up.

Different intersections race and gender might show up with complex trauma. There's the complex trauma in and of itself that many neurodivergent people experience of just a world that's not really set up for them. That's a lack of flexibility at work. There's a lack of being able to take time off or take breaks during the day, having to speak and act and engage in the world in in the way that other people are expecting. And that's

very commonly leads to experiences like anxiety or depression or burnout.

Sheela (09:57)

there's so many overlaps. I can speak to my own experience. all of this happened in adulthood, but I was diagnosed with anxiety, had to learn what anxiety looked like for me because it wasn't typical. once my therapist pointed out, I was like, that makes sense. I have always felt the butterflies in my stomach. I have always had a a racing heart rate. and

was later diagnosed with PTSD. And I've known about my sensory sensitivities. And when I started to try to figure it out, I kept being told that I was highly sensitive because I'm high functioning. And so it's really interesting because, what you've been sharing about trauma, there are with with trauma and brain changes like in Alzheimer's, there are a lot of similar symptoms.

and what you're experiencing in the real world. And then those things also compound. they impact each other in multiple ways. And so you can experience trauma and have executive dysfunction, be neurodivergent and experiencing ableism in the world, having to mask can then compound that trauma. So it's it's and making

Shelby Nolan (10:56)

Right.

Sheela (10:57)

executive functioning worse. So it's very complex.

Shelby Nolan (11:00)

Yes, absolutely. this isn't like a rule of thumb or anything to like use necessarily diagnostically, but it's pretty often someone who might have a history of anxiety and depression that is especially difficult to treat or just hasn't been very all that effective. Like some some tools here and there, some some benefit. very

Often there's undiagnosed neurodivergence related to that. It could be trauma, it could be ADHD, it could be autism, it could be a lot of different things. in part, especially if we're talking about ADHD and executive functioning, anxiety is one of the best coping strategies for executive functioning. and other

kind of aspects of of lived experience with AHDH. Not that it's the most pleasant coping mechanism, but it is a very effective coping mechanism. If we stay all perched up, if we stay kind of vigilant, then maybe we interrupt people less or maybe we focus a little bit better. maybe we can manage our our body, our speech, the impulsivity side of it, we can focus more other than occasionally when we overshoot the anxiety and we're just

telling ourselves to listen and we're not listening because all we're doing is just hearing ourselves telling ourselves to listen in moments like that. and depression shows up because there's so much there's so much shame and there's so much negative feedback that we get as neurodivergent people, especially with like ADHD, you have so much potential. Why can't you just sit still, just listen? Why is your head always in the clouds? Space cadet.

So there could be a lot of of shame related to that and depression and ADHD share that similarity of occasionally low dopamine or just dopamine dysregulation.

Sheela (12:31)

Yeah, thank you for for pointing that out. I'm not a psychotherapist. I think of occupational therapy as doing therapy, we're in the middle of somebody's kitchen moving things around and figuring out how to do things, how to make them doable. and so it's something that I always bring up is that that guilt and shame only makes executive functioning worse. It makes it so much harder.

obviously as does ableism and the the societal pressures. but I'd love to hear more about your own experiences. I know that your experience with neurodivergence and how that's shown up in your life has shifted from childhood to where you are right now.

Shelby Nolan (13:07)

Yeah. I felt just odd as a as a child, although to be fair, my family was actually quite accepting because I think they're lovingly all a bunch of odd birds too. but I still I just felt very different and I struggled socially, especially after about middle school or so, which is not uncommon, right? But there is some aspects that just made made life a little more difficult and none of this was talked about when I was young.

maybe ADHD if if you were the type of kiddo that was like absolutely bouncing off the walls. but even so both my siblings kind of were on that more hyperactive side and also didn't get diagnosed when we were young. but when I was in graduate school and neurodivergence, this is like around like that 2020 era and a lot more people are talking about it online. It's kind of blowing up as a topic and started exploring and going like wow, okay, some of this is really explaining

Things I didn't have words for and experiences I didn't really know that other people shared. and as I explored it and started treating myself like a neurodivergent person, my life changed drastically. I used to have an immense amount of anxiety, and now it's quite well managed. even patterns of depression are a lot more managed in treating myself like a neurodivergent person.

Sheela (14:17)

you mentioned outside of this episode that you've noticed a lot more burnout lately. for myself, I feel like accepting my neurodivergent identity has allowed me to be okay with not doing things, being okay with things like falling apart. Kind of that's what I tell myself,

right? It's gonna fall apart my head. I'm still here, so it hasn't

Shelby Nolan (14:35)

Right.

Sheela (14:37)

totally fallen apart, but just being a lot more gentle with myself, with my expectations and what

I in the past had forced myself to do.

Shelby Nolan (14:45)

It absolutely comes in waves and I am a recovering perfectionist who is is working quite hard on giving myself a little bit more grace and a little bit more permission to

just not be pushing through, not be pushing through the executive dysfunction or I was quite notorious in in school, in undergrad, graduate school for like absolutely pushing it so hard in the semester and then crashing out for at least three, four plus days after the semester ended where I would be just like sickly, not getting out of bed, having a really hard time. but it definitely comes in waves. I've learned how to start

tracking things, using concepts like the spoon theory to follow my needs. Sometimes I need a break from socialization. Sometimes I need more social engagement, following my needs around food. I'm a lifter. I do a lot of movement, a lot of exercise. I care about like nutrition and like eating healthy, kind of quote unquote. but there was I think it was last year's summer, I

ate nothing but chicken nuggets for lunch the whole summer long because everything else sounded terrible and made me just gag at the thought of it okay, I mean is that the best thing ever? No, probably not the best thing ever. And also I ate enough to keep going and just following those those needs and what my body is kind of reacting to.

Sheela (16:00)

Yeah, I think that's so important because best practices are individual. It totally depends on the person. I always ask, especially if I'm working with students, when there's evidence-based things, I always ask who's evidence. And what I found working with neurodivergent folks and being neurodivergent myself is something may have, been studied and have really high efficacy or is known to help a lot of people.

And it might not be it for myself or for another person. And so there's a lot of trial and error, a lot of figuring out. And if chicken nuggets work for you, you're still here. that's something we see with a lot of kids, right? a lot of picky eaters or sensitive eaters, parents really worry and their kids do end up just doing just fine.

you've mentioned a few times your experiences as a student. and we work in professions that are supposed to be neuroaffirming, We're supposed to be challenging ableism, yet within clinical training there is ableism. there is a lot of lack of support. And so would love to hear your experiences as

as a therapist in training. like you said, you did all this work in advance and you felt prepared. so would like to hear what your experiences were and then how you supervise people now and so how you've changed that.

Shelby Nolan (17:18)

Yeah, definitely. there were aspects of especially graduate school that I think they did really well. Like in classes it was like if you need to stretch or move. I especially went to like a weekend format school. So the classes were like all day long on the weekends. and so they're like, yeah, if you need to stretch, if you need to move around, like, you know, go to the sides or the back of the classroom and you know, do what you need to do. And those parts were really

great in the in the learning environment part when we got to the more practical side of things. There's a bit of this, well, this is the way we teach it. This is the way you're supposed to do it. Like this is like historically how it's been done or what we've kind of moved into that I thought might be a little not quite as flexible as might as might have been helpful. things like

training newer clinicians in in therapy to have a a soft, a gentle, a very client-centered approach, which all sounds great and is great. but that kind of includes sitting very still and maybe not even writing paper notes in session because that might create distance between you and the client or really only following the client's lead.

And a lot of those things just didn't work for me. I am a much much more directive provider. So I'll like for sure follow my client if they want to talk about this event that happened over the week versus this other thing that we had planned last time. Okay, yeah, I can be flexible there. And I will be a little bit more directive, like, okay, well let's try this thing. Let's do this. Let's practice that. What about this skill? and

also facilitate a little bit, especially for folks who struggle with identifying their emotions or or what they really want to do or executive dysfunctions getting in the way. All right here, let me help you. I also move a lot and fidget a lot. I have fidget toys at my home office, at my office office. I tell people all the time, if if you want to doodle, if you want to crochet, if you need to keep your hands busy, please please do that.

And I take notes during session on my computer in person or or telehealth, which other other people might think is kind of bonkers or like would create distance.

But it helps keep me on track of like on my documentation, which makes me a better provider and allows me to help more people. And it actually gives me a little bit of an eye contact break here and there when I'm just typing a quick sentence. And so I use that when I am talking with newer clinicians in the field and helping them break some of I kind of call them like capital R rules versus lowercase R rules.

We tend to treat, especially as neurodivergent folks, especially if there's any kind of like autism patterns, treat things like capital R rules, like it's gotta be done like this. You you have to do it 'cause that's the way you were taught. And maybe not, maybe that's not a capital R rule, maybe it's more of a rule of thumb, like a lowercase R rule.

A a clear example of that is like with documentation in my internship, everyone's told, you know, you have to get your notes done within like twenty-four or forty-eight hours. And I like, I know for sure people aren't doing that. This is a recurring thing in the field. I know that's not happening. So it's a rule, but everyone's breaking it. What do you mean? And I asked my supervisor at the time and she was like, Well, if you don't get your notes done by the end of the pay period, you don't get paid and I was like, Okay, that's a real hard and fast rule that has a consequence. And so teaching

people, whether it's as a newer clinician in the field or as someone at home, what are the rules we can break? What are rules that are not capital R rules? You can fidget in session. You can sit on the floor. You could do a lot of different things that aren't breaking like consequential rules. Similarly to folks at home, who cares if you brush your teeth in the shower or in the kitchen or at the bathroom sink? It isn't it's not it's not big deal.

Sheela (20:48)

Yeah, I love that. you have found your own accommodations, what works for you that helps you be a better, more attentive, more effective therapist. and it seems like that also benefits your clients that probably at this point are finding you and coming to you that's what they need, Most of us,

have a choice in the therapists we find obviously with things like Medicaid, lack of insurance, that makes it a lot tougher. finding the right fit. And sometimes I think once you've built this practice and your identity is a part of it, people kind of gravitate towards you as well.

Shelby Nolan (21:20)

Yes.

Yeah, there's so much community in having a shared identity.

A lot of neurodivergent clients want a neurodivergent clinician. It's the same as a woman who wants to work with a woman provider, a queer person wanting to work with a queer provider, a black person wanting to work with a black provider. Right, because there's this really difference in the in the flavor and the feeling of the care with there's things that you just share, you don't have to explain, or if you are explaining it, it's for those little nuances of like your individual experience. Like we both know what executive dysfunction is.

I'm gonna have you explain it so I get your specific individual experience of it. But we will we both know what we're talking about. It's such a beautiful thing to be a neurodivergent person working with neurodivergent people. And even when we're talking about things like maybe some other therapist, maybe a neurotypical therapist was like, hey, let's let's try this planner, let's try this organizational system. It feels different coming from a neurodivergent provider that's like, hey, I know this kind of this kind of stuff.

has failed you before. What if we tried it this way? What if we worked with your brain to create an organizational system or to, you know, manage executive dysfunction, but in a way that

works with you rather than just being something someone offered but didn't really get it.

Sheela (22:37)

I think that sharing lived experience, whether it's finding a therapist or like you said, finding community, if it's peer support or just the friends that you make, there's just something really powerful about not really having to explain yourself, not having to mask if you don't feel like it. and I have noticed I've done it myself, where

I'll do something just to appease my therapist. and that's not why we go to therapy.

Shelby Nolan (23:04)

Yeah. Exactly like making eye contact or sitting in a certain way. I'm like if you need a lounge or if we're my office is kinda not super well shaped for pacing, although some people have. But virtually, if you need to pace, that's totally fine. Just sit me somewhere stationary because I'll get motion sick if you take me along for the ride. But if you need to do it, do it. That's fine. You want to stim, you wanna slouch, you're having a really hard, like

chronic pain day and you want to be lying down, you want to be in a darker room, okay, it's fine. I'll check in. How are you doing? Are you safe? Are you in a safe environment? Cool, cool, cool. whatever you need to do and that's fine. We can be accommodating. We can work with it rather than giving you some kind of prescription that you need to act or be a certain way or or mask in this place.

Sheela (23:49)

as we wrap up, do you have any final words or advice for people that are listening, especially people maybe that have felt that they do need to mask or they may not have a choice when they're seeking professional help?

Shelby Nolan (24:02)

Yeah. It's being it when possible 'cause like certain financial or insurance situations definitely limit us. it's relatively gets getting easier to find folks on psychology today or there's a different directory called ND Therapist.

That's a a great directory too

of finding folks who are have lived experience or specialize in this work in a different way and are like, most people are willing to do like a free consultation, right? And kind of ask them questions like how do you work with this, how do you accommodate that? and kind of explore what it might be like to be a little bit more fully yourself in a space, thinking of masking less as an on and off switch and more like a dial that we can kind of

tinker with a little bit, I can still maybe speak in a certain way if I have I have a fairly expressive voice a lot of the time. But maybe if I have a more like flat kind of affect and flat intonation, maybe I can keep that, but maybe I can like fidget with my fingers a little bit in session and just try dabbling and unmasking and seeing if that feels a little bit better.

Sheela (25:05)

Well, thank you so much, Shelby. Really appreciate all the education resources that you've shared. We will be sharing your practice information in the show notes and then all of the additional resources for finding therapists. I'll add some on there. I know there's inclusive therapists. There are also a couple of options for queer and trans folks as well, looking for safe and affirming.

And shared identity therapists as well. So we will catch you next time. Thank you.

Shelby Nolan (25:32)

Thank you so much for having

me.